Youth Soccer - Tryouts/Rosters/Minimum Playing Time etc

[4_the_kids]

@John McKay how do you think you can possibly rank/score players @ trials?

First many great responses , lets keep the conversation going.
As for try outs, i think ,most agree its broken system, most teams do not change year over year and its really hard to make a higher team if you aren't there by age 9. This is wrong as we know players develop at different speed both mentally and physically.
I am not sure there is a perfect system for tryouts, many different ways to evaluate a player. And with limited resources the challenge for clubs is even greater. For example i was just reading an article on AC Milan youth academy, they have 90 paid coaches/ physiologists/physiotherapists, administers on staff for 230 kids. Local clubs would be lucky to have 2-6 paid staff members responsible for more than 230 kids. Not saying we can get top that ratio , don't think even the Whitecaps can provide that but we need to think how we can improve it, need more corporate money in youth systems to make it happen.
One thing that can me done by all clubs immediately, is being way more transparent with the process, providing feedback for those who don't make it, or at least the 10 bubble players , etc.. And create better participation in the club academies, so as to have greater opportunity to evaluate players.
I also feel HPL franchises should be district run not club run or at least not have community club affiliations, get past the club egos all trying to prove they are better, we need all clubs on the same page working together to develop players and encouraging and being proud when they move on to greater things...

 

[BHerd]

Yep.....like the comments John.....well thought out.
Your comments on the psychological impact of not playing members of a team is certainly points coaches should consider.

Pertaining to the fair playing time comments the notion for having everyone playing the exact amount or 50% compared to their peers is a little far fetched.
Higher level players are naturally going to get a little more play time based on the team success derived from this decision.
The other side of this is to view other players around the better players as getting better in the process.
A point I'm sure many parents would argue but a coach and club would most likely agree with me in that the higher level performers will just get more play time as results do matter at the end of the day.

cheers,
BHerd

 

[John McKay]

John Mckay - great post , so much sense and hope the thee likes of BC Soccer take note . LTPD is pointless as currently these organizations don,t enforce anything

Thank you WTF, I agree with you 100% ................ LTPD is the key.

 

[John McKay]

@John McKay how do you think you can possibly rank/score players @ trials?

@John McKay how do you think you can possibly rank/score players @ trials?

Hello TKBC, It's a good question and one that I didn't go into much detail about.
Not wanting to write a book on it, like most , I just have my personal opinion on the matter.

For sure, ranking players at trials is not an easy task, however it is attainable, provided we utilize a different system.
It is estimated that 30% or more of players that attend tryouts are improperly assessed.
What I am saying is, let's get a better system for assessing players.

Change is needed, we have to figure out how.

How would I possibly do this?
I'd probably say ... with great difficulty !
All joking aside, we can certainly do better than the current system. There are probably 100 different approaches on how one would rank a player. Private assessment agencies are an option, they have some excellent systems. They are the pros at assessment and are pretty reasonable about things. They work with the local coaches to get their input, they work with the individual and the parents. The real key to these type of pro assessments are to report on strengths and areas in need of improvement over a period of time. Not just a 1,2,3 day approach totaling 3 hours ! When a player is assessed by a private firm, the club can draw from this research to select players that are truly able to meet the standards that are expected. (fair & unbiased as well).

Change is needed, we have to figure out how.
The draw back is, (and I think this is where you are coming from TKBC) it is unlikely that our current system will ever relinquish the decision making power to a privateer. In addition, hiring a firm to do your assessments properly is going to cost some money.

We'd all have to reorganize the current structure, it is possible to do it.

In other countries, private player assessments do occur. So it's not like it's impossible.

I recall watching Chelsea putting their junior prospects through their paces, target shooting, running pace times, target passing, the list goes on. The process is progressive. Interesting that it is done at no cost to the individual player.The sooner we get to this stage the better. The Dutch put their youth through quite a system as well.



If we really were doing things right ............. we would produce different and better players.
Compared to the world standards it is unfortunate .......... we have continuously suffered.

Overall, there is a massive need for improvement.

TKBC, I respect your opinion and would like to ask you,

Do you think it is possible to rank players here in BC at the youth level?

Do you have any suggestions on how we can assess players better than the current system?

Regards,

John McKay Fast Foot Speed

 

[John McKay]

First many great responses , lets keep the conversation going.
As for try outs, i think ,most agree its broken system, most teams do not change year over year and its really hard to make a higher team if you aren't there by age 9. This is wrong as we know players develop at different speed both mentally and physically.
I am not sure there is a perfect system for tryouts, many different ways to evaluate a player. And with limited resources the challenge for clubs is even greater. For example i was just reading an article on AC Milan youth academy, they have 90 paid coaches/ physiologists/physiotherapists, administers on staff for 230 kids. Local clubs would be lucky to have 2-6 paid staff members responsible for more than 230 kids. Not saying we can get top that ratio , don't think even the Whitecaps can provide that but we need to think how we can improve it, need more corporate money in youth systems to make it happen.
One thing that can me done by all clubs immediately, is being way more transparent with the process, providing feedback for those who don't make it, or at least the 10 bubble players , etc.. And create better participation in the club academies, so as to have greater opportunity to evaluate players.
I also feel HPL franchises should be district run not club run or at least not have community club affiliations, get past the club egos all trying to prove they are better, we need all clubs on the same page working together to develop players and encouraging and being proud when they move on to greater things...

 

[John McKay]

Remarkable, the ratio of coaches to players ! I totally agree with your perspective, more youth involvement with academies would be a great step forward. Transparency is just the right thing for everyone. Really liked your words !

 

[LFC]

I have attended tryouts at most of the clubs in the Surrey area - SU ,Coastal , CCB , SFC and its a real farce what goes on - favouritism by coach,s for certain players [who don,t meet the level of select teams ] , lg roster sizes , players getting very little game time etc .[/QUOTE]

A very interesting and sensitive topic - will share my experiences [mostly bad] in the next few days

 

[TKBC]

Hello TKBC, It's a good question and one that I didn't go into much detail about.
Not wanting to write a book on it, like most , I just have my personal opinion on the matter.

For sure, ranking players at trials is not an easy task, however it is attainable, provided we utilize a different system.
It is estimated that 30% or more of players that attend tryouts are improperly assessed.
What I am saying is, let's get a better system for assessing players.

Change is needed, we have to figure out how.

How would I possibly do this?
I'd probably say ... with great difficulty !
All joking aside, we can certainly do better than the current system. There are probably 100 different approaches on how one would rank a player. Private assessment agencies are an option, they have some excellent systems. They are the pros at assessment and are pretty reasonable about things. They work with the local coaches to get their input, they work with the individual and the parents. The real key to these type of pro assessments are to report on strengths and areas in need of improvement over a period of time. Not just a 1,2,3 day approach totaling 3 hours ! When a player is assessed by a private firm, the club can draw from this research to select players that are truly able to meet the standards that are expected. (fair & unbiased as well).

Change is needed, we have to figure out how.
The draw back is, (and I think this is where you are coming from TKBC) it is unlikely that our current system will ever relinquish the decision making power to a privateer. In addition, hiring a firm to do your assessments properly is going to cost some money.

We'd all have to reorganize the current structure, it is possible to do it.

In other countries, private player assessments do occur. So it's not like it's impossible.

I recall watching Chelsea putting their junior prospects through their paces, target shooting, running pace times, target passing, the list goes on. The process is progressive. Interesting that it is done at no cost to the individual player.The sooner we get to this stage the better. The Dutch put their youth through quite a system as well.



If we really were doing things right ............. we would produce different and better players.
Compared to the world standards it is unfortunate .......... we have continuously suffered.

Overall, there is a massive need for improvement.

TKBC, I respect your opinion and would like to ask you,

Do you think it is possible to rank players here in BC at the youth level?

Do you have any suggestions on how we can assess players better than the current system?

Regards,

John McKay Fast Foot Speed

For me the solution is actually very simple - but requires focus, and attention to detail over a period of time. Assess players actively from August 1-March 1. From that you select your team for the following season.

For BCSPL - this require scouting MSL and Div1 games for all teams in your district. This requires inviting interesting players you scouted to training. Not once, but numerous times of a period of time.

For MSL it's the same but for Div1 for all teams in your district.

For Div1 and down it's an intra-club-wide assessment.

This is NOT my idea. It's simply one I have utilized based on suggestions from smarter soccer people than me. It's very effective.

So the question is - what about new players? You select a squad of 16 players in spring. Then 2-3 new kids turn up in August. Well from March to August it's typical for 1-3 kids to move on. New kids replace those that left. Your team grows with the new kids if none had left the team. Or you tell the new kids to play a lower level or at another club at the same level.

 

[easoccer]

We talk about fair playing time, but I'm going to play the devils advocate here. What about the kid who is placed in what is abviously the wrong division? Say Div 2 when they player is obviously Div 4? No technical skills, slow, or possibly hasnt even played organized soccer in the past? We want the player to continue in soccer, not chase him away, but he is obviously not qualified for this level of play? What can a coach do? You put the player on the field, a trial by fire, but he freezes and cant compose himself? I would guess this is a scenario thats plays out as often, or more than the elite player 2 levels below his capability.

 

[4_the_kids]

We talk about fair playing time, but I'm going to play the devils advocate here. What about the kid who is placed in what is abviously the wrong division? Say Div 2 when they player is obviously Div 4? No technical skills, slow, or possibly hasnt even played organized soccer in the past? We want the player to continue in soccer, not chase him away, but he is obviously not qualified for this level of play? What can a coach do? You put the player on the field, a trial by fire, but he freezes and cant compose himself? I would guess this is a scenario thats plays out as often, or more than the elite player 2 levels below his capability.

You bring up an interesting point, I would suggest that the coach should be working with the club, parent and player to have him placed at a more appropriate level. The whole idea of a player misplaced goes along with the playing with friends, staying on the team and supports the recreational model where equal playing regardless of talent is the only way to ensure kids continue to play. If the kid you speak of is say in U11 or U12 I would suspect he isn't playing by U15 if he stays at that level over his head.

Now in my Utopian world with proper tryouts / evaluations and player placement this would never happen as the player would be placed in the proper division, as determined by technical staff coaches, not by club administrators , coaches, players or parents. Every player is evaluated and placed , not just the elite player. Simply put player evaluations , then player placement then team creation then coach selection ( if coach has player playing) if not connected to player coach selections can happen ahead, I just don't want coaches picking the team.,have insight yes but not final say.

 

[Tom Duley]

I look at the comments and then wonder to myself, has any one comment on here mentioned accountability from the boys? I've played for many years at various levels and now coach, offering a minimum amount of playing time is definitely a good idea but there are always circumstances when the playing time is NOT warranted.

I've has the pleasure to watch my boys team grow together, they have definitely improved since the end on last season, we've had a few excellent surprises and the work rate has increased greatly. The challenge in a couple of instances is that there are those, 1 or 2 that just refuse to complete their on-field tasks, they will not work even remotely close to the rest of the boys, they show little urgency and effort, they hold back the entire team because they lack the will to push through and do their part.

How do we justify playing them to a minimum, when in fact they behave as if they've completed their task once they made the team and all their hard work is done?

 

[Tom Duley]

Competition level amongst team-mates is healthy but when some do not provide the adequate level, they just do not deserve equal time. The challenging part is, how can you demote from MSL to Div 1?

 

[easoccer]

I look at the comments and then wonder to myself, has any one comment on here mentioned accountability from the boys? I've played for many years at various levels and now coach, offering a minimum amount of playing time is definitely a good idea but there are always circumstances when the playing time is NOT warranted.

I've has the pleasure to watch my boys team grow together, they have definitely improved since the end on last season, we've had a few excellent surprises and the work rate has increased greatly. The challenge in a couple of instances is that there are those, 1 or 2 that just refuse to complete their on-field tasks, they will not work even remotely close to the rest of the boys, they show little urgency and effort, they hold back the entire team because they lack the will to push through and do their part.

How do we justify playing them to a minimum, when in fact they behave as if they've completed their task once they made the team and all their hard work is done?

I have had fantastic players, who just dont put in the work, or are constantly disruptive. It doesnt matter how beneficial I MAY FEEL they are to the team, I have certain standards and if they dont abide, I wont pick them up the following year.

 

[Tom Duley]

I have had fantastic players, who just dont put in the work, or are constantly disruptive. It doesnt matter how beneficial I MAY FEEL they are to the team, I have certain standards and if they dont abide, I wont pick them up the following year.

have you ever wondered why Canada is ranked #1 in hockey and #122 in soccer? We are not doing anyone a favour when we don't hold kids accountable to their assignments and instructions. nobody is suggesting harsh treatment but how do you justify giving up time from a kid that is fully committed to one that is not even close to being committed?

 

[4_the_kids]

Competition level amongst team-mates is healthy but when some do not provide the adequate level, they just do not deserve equal time. The challenging part is, how can you demote from MSL to Div 1?

Demotion has to happen at the individual player level through try outs. , your spot isn't guaranteed you have to earn it.

 

[4_the_kids]

have you ever wondered why Canada is ranked #1 in hockey and #122 in soccer? We are not doing anyone a favour when we don't hold kids accountable to their assignments and instructions. nobody is suggesting harsh treatment but how do you justify giving up time from a kid that is fully committed to one that is not even close to being committed?

Talk to some hockey parents, there is even more politics at play in hockey, its not a role model system at all. Only reason we are so much better at it is corporate and political investment is way higher, if soccer got the same money as hockey we would be a top 10 nation but it doesn't even come close.

 

[Tom Duley]

Talk to some hockey parents, there is even more politics at play in hockey, its not a role model system at all. Only reason we are so much better at it is corporate and political investment is way higher, if soccer got the same money as hockey we would be a top 10 nation but it doesn't even come close.

I totally disagree.

Soccer in most soccer nations is very competitive, starting at the young ages of 8-10. that doesn't mean kids don't change or develop after that, it means its a serious sport and families take it seriously, the same as if you attend school and are required to give your best effort, listen to instructions and do your assignments.

 

[4_the_kids]

I totally disagree.

Soccer in most soccer nations is very competitive, starting at the young ages of 8-10. that doesn't mean kids don't change or develop after that, it means its a serious sport and families take it seriously, the same as if you attend school and are required to give your best effort, listen to instructions and do your assignments.

So we don't need the political or corporate investment to take the sport more seriously? I agree soccer is a fringe sport in Canada , it is growing though and the MLS is helping that, still we need the political and corporate investments that hockey gets, we need better coaches, better training for coaches, better facilities , better access etc..
MLS is providing kids with new heroes to look up to , a goal in there own back yard, we need to keep growing that , greater interest will drive greater investment by ALL

 

[Tom Duley]

So we don't need the political or corporate investment to take the sport more seriously? I agree soccer is a fringe sport in Canada , it is growing though and the MLS is helping that, still we need the political and corporate investments that hockey gets, we need better coaches, better training for coaches, better facilities , better access etc..
MLS is providing kids with new heroes to look up to , a goal in there own back yard, we need to keep growing that , greater interest will drive greater investment by ALL

I don't disagree with that part, my overall comment was targeted more towards the culture of the game vs how we see the 'fairness" part working. Many poor countries, without much corporate assistance succeed far better than Canada does because of the way soccer is being coached at the Grass Roots level. It is a privilege to play and an honour to represent your team at a fairly high level (Div.1 or MSL), people don't take it for granted over there like we do over here. Accountability is a very serious part of it, otherwise there are 50 others waiting to take your spot.

 

[TKBC]

We talk about fair playing time, but I'm going to play the devils advocate here. What about the kid who is placed in what is abviously the wrong division? Say Div 2 when they player is obviously Div 4? No technical skills, slow, or possibly hasnt even played organized soccer in the past? We want the player to continue in soccer, not chase him away, but he is obviously not qualified for this level of play? What can a coach do? You put the player on the field, a trial by fire, but he freezes and cant compose himself? I would guess this is a scenario thats plays out as often, or more than the elite player 2 levels below his capability.

Simple. Remove him from the team and put him on d4. Or talk to him and his parents about his level of play and that a lack of playing time should be accepted or they can choose to leave.