Why No Metro Players on BC Provincial Teams?

[soccer mom]

If you are u14 and living in Terrace BC your options to playing HPL are limited. Even playing metro isnt going to happen. So based on the rules approach why dont we just change the rules all together and say you have to live in the lower mainland or Victoria in order to get an invite to provincial teams. Lets limit our pool of eligible players to a fraction of the current size and be done with it.

I am being facetious but is that what it has come down to?

I have never coached (I am sorry) but I do know as a competitive person if there was a quality player in Terrace that was better than any of the other kids on the team at the provincial level I would want the opportunity to have that child play. I couldn't care less if he was from Terrace, wore a turban, spoke with an accent or had pink skin. If he is from BC and one of the best players lets get him on the team. Is it the 13 year olds fault he was born in the rainforest of BC?

BTW - I believe Terrace has a paid head coach that should have some relationships with the BC Soccer head brass.

 

[4_the_kids]

Absolutely. But this goes back, also, to my "regional PTP model" idea. Get rid of this centralized PTP nonsense. Have 10-12 PTP's spread around the province. You'll then have no excuse to be "discovered" regardless of the level of play and BC can very safely say they've seen everyone regardless of level of play. Which is exactly how it should be - find the best regardless of league. (note: my regional PTP model does include a centralized PTP but only for prep for the national comps). Regional PTP would allow for regular training, coach ed, and player identification.

Agreed... regional centers of excellence if you would. Isn't the girls side doing that? its a challenge in Canada as a whole as we have spread out population basis in a large country / provinces with very areas of density.
you also enter in to a situation where kids playing on the Okanagan PTP team for example are of lesser quality than those who didn't make a lower mainland one...not sure how best to get a round that

 

[4_the_kids]

If you are u14 and living in Terrace BC your options to playing HPL are limited. Even playing metro isnt going to happen. So based on the rules approach why dont we just change the rules all together and say you have to live in the lower mainland or Victoria in order to get an invite to provincial teams. Lets limit our pool of eligible players to a fraction of the current size and be done with it.

I am being facetious but is that what it has come down to?

I have never coached (I am sorry) but I do know as a competitive person if there was a quality player in Terrace that was better than any of the other kids on the team at the provincial level I would want the opportunity to have that child play. I couldn't care less if he was from Terrace, wore a turban, spoke with an accent or had pink skin. If he is from BC and one of the best players lets get him on the team. Is it the 13 year olds fault he was born in the rainforest of BC?

BTW - I believe Terrace has a paid head coach that should have some relationships with the BC Soccer head brass.

i believe that kid would be found but it takes someone to notify BC soccer to make it happen. just as it take sa coach in the lower mainland to notify a BCSPL coach of talent...

 

[soccer mom]

Maybe BC Soccer should do similar to hockey and have scouts in these remote areas. Pay could be based on a scale of development. Such that if a child is scouted and recognized as obtaining a certain level than the scout gets comped. Maybe minimal expenses paid for or whatever. I dont think BC Soccer has a huge staff but if they had key people in each area that report back to a centarl person they could get great coverage.

 

[TKBC]

you also enter in to a situation where kids playing on the Okanagan PTP team for example are of lesser quality than those who didn't make a lower mainland one...not sure how best to get a round that

Definitely an issue, but at the same time you can't please everyone. But, the Thompson-Okanagan BCSPL teams are fairly competitive, and would definitely be upper MSL level. But, I think the way around it is that you keep the Okanagan PTP program to, say, 20 players (and thus not all of them will be BCSPL players), but maybe you expand the Fraser Valley one to 30 players....? The Kootenays team could be organized with maybe 16 players and maybe they hop over to Calgary for regular games.....I dunno. Never will be a perfect system.

 

[TKBC]

i believe that kid would be found but it takes someone to notify BC soccer to make it happen. just as it take sa coach in the lower mainland to notify a BCSPL coach of talent...

But the coaches should also be out looking for the talent. BCSPL coaches should be actively scouting every MSL/Div1 team in their district. Meaning, the Surrey United coach wouldn't have to leave Surrey or go beyond Langley (Langley being one of their partners).

 

[TKBC]

Maybe BC Soccer should do similar to hockey and have scouts in these remote areas. Pay could be based on a scale of development. Such that if a child is scouted and recognized as obtaining a certain level than the scout gets comped. Maybe minimal expenses paid for or whatever. I dont think BC Soccer has a huge staff but if they had key people in each area that report back to a centarl person they could get great coverage.

This would be an extension of my regional PTP idea.

 

[4_the_kids]

Definitely an issue, but at the same time you can't please everyone. But, the Thompson-Okanagan BCSPL teams are fairly competitive, and would definitely be upper MSL level. But, I think the way around it is that you keep the Okanagan PTP program to, say, 20 players (and thus not all of them will be BCSPL players), but maybe you expand the Fraser Valley one to 30 players....? The Kootenays team could be organized with maybe 16 players and maybe they hop over to Calgary for regular games.....I dunno. Never will be a perfect system.

Exactly it will never be perfect so is the current system that bad?
It wouldn't help with costs but what if the private academies played a role on the regional PTP side, play against each other and the whitecaps residency. Then we make a true provincial team out of the best of that group? Regardless there needs top be open tryouts even the national team as open tryouts I believe..

 

[4_the_kids]

But the coaches should also be out looking for the talent. BCSPL coaches should be actively scouting every MSL/Div1 team in their district. Meaning, the Surrey United coach wouldn't have to leave Surrey or go beyond Langley (Langley being one of their partners).

I think the lines of communication between coaches and clubs needs to open up. BCSPL coaches should have on going communication with Metro coaches, Metro coaches should have on going communications with Div 1 coaches , Div 1 coaches with Div 2 coaches and so on... For development to truly work it needs to be as open as possible, and coaches need to let their top players go, even if losing them means you won't compete for provincial cup ....besides if you are truly a team at a certain level losing one or two players shouldn't stop you from being competitive ...
I am coaching U13 Div 1 , my goal is to have the Metro team scoop up 2-3 players from my team or at least have them be challenging for spots..... my primary goal isn't winning the provincial cup even though the team is probably good enough to make a run..If I don't lose at least one player to Metro by next year I haven't done my job ... sorry got of topic a bit there...

 

[TKBC]

Exactly it will never be perfect so is the current system that bad?
It wouldn't help with costs but what if the private academies played a role on the regional PTP side, play against each other and the whitecaps residency. Then we make a true provincial team out of the best of that group? Regardless there needs top be open tryouts even the national team as open tryouts I believe..

Agreed - although I don't think the nat team should be open trials. Players of that quality will be known whether they are playing BCSPL or div 2 in which case the Whitecaps would be signing them (or they'd get a free ride in BCSPL assuming they couldn't afford it). National level players do truly stand out. Players will always be missed, in every country, (just look at Joe DiChiara - never made the Ontario teams or top tier then was starting in the Russian Prem League at 19!).

 

[Coldicutt]

I have been managing various teams in the lower mainland with my boy since he was in U9. I have watched his progression from development to GOLD to BCSPL.He is now in one of the top BCSPL team(his 2nd team).

Here are my observations of various issues that needs to be addressed:

At development and Gold/Silver levels, most staff are volunteers and people volunteer for personal reasons - most due to their kids are playing, therefore, it is common to see a team build around a coach's son and his friends. However, this is understandable and expected.The most disturbing thing at this level is the lack of skill training since 80% of the coaches lack the skills themselves. From U8-U12 is when the kids need to develop these basic skills, it is too late by U13 and beyond.

I believe most of the Clubs such as Cliff Ave ,Port Moody and etc. should have Club pros train once a week min. with U10-U12 teams. Right now, I believe only certain selected kids get the chance to be invited to train with club Pros, this is very wrong since the relationship thing is at work. My boy was never invited to these "Training with Pro" sessions when he was younger,fortunately, I knew some very good ex-European Pros that was willing to train my son for a fee. That was how he attained his basic skills.But, what about kids who are less fortunate or with less money?

AT BCSPL level, unfortunately, there are some serious issues still. It is very true that right now, "Elite" soccer in BC is reserved for the wealthy. Most BCSPL clubs will cost parents somewhere around $2700 to $4500 per year in net income. This includes a lot of extra fees that are not included in the posted fee. Most BCSPL clubs are funded by the players' family with small amount of government help.This creates situations where clubs are retaining players that really are not BCSPL level but the parents have the financial backing through donations to keep these players on the roster(they get min. minutes in a game). It is starting to get the feel of private schools with the nice uniforms.

Some of the other issues of nepotism is still there with relationships and etc. My son was in this club where he had done very well in a position from Intake to U13, then in U14, when one of the kid who was injured for almost 2 years(yes, about 20months) came back, my son's position was promptly given to the kid whose father was well connected with the Club board of directors(they socialize and played soccer together before), my son was relegated to whatever position was available for each game - he came close to quitting soccer, he lost most of his confidence during that period of time.

I took my son to another BCSPL team(top one as a matter of fact) for another tryout, we did not know a single staff member, it was a blind tryout. The coach of that BCSPL team picked my son after 1 tryout, this coach is probably the most respected coach in all of BCSPL,if you know BCSPL, you will know who I am talking about. What this tells me is that the other team has some very serious issues with internal politics and it is serious enough that it almost made a kid quit soccer.My son now has been with this new team for about 4 months and has his confidence back and his love of the sport. BTW, this new coach is how I envision a top level soccer coach should be. He is from Europe - no ties to the boys club here, completely fair(I believe he cut one of his own son from a team once), tough as door nail, absolutely no BS from the parents, he will always give both positive and negative comments when it is deserved, at the right time.

The problem is that these top notch coaches are far and few in between. In all fairness, the club my son is in also has one of the better financial structure of all BCSPL clubs.With Financial resources available, it eliminates some of the obstacles other less well financed Clubs face.

I believe, Canadian governments(provincial and federal) needs to help to restructure the existing models of BC Soccer. The pyramid system is needed, however, the money at the bottom of the pyramid needs to be distributed to the higher end to bring down the total cost of "Elite" soccer hence kids with less financial assistance have a shot at getting in the top elite teams. The only way for this to really work is to integrate BCSPL Metro leagues and various clubs into a seamless entity - this is a huge undertaking that needs government intervention.

 

[easoccer]

In addition to the great post above, I would suggest that in addition to players training with club pros that if possible coaches did as well. Whether through practice plans on on the field in sessions.

This would be especially important in the coaches first couple of years.

 

[TKBC]

Here are my observations of various issues that needs to be addressed:

1. At development and Gold/Silver levels, most staff are volunteers and people volunteer for personal reasons - most due to their kids are playing...the lack of skill training since 80% of the coaches lack the skills themselves
2. From U8-U12 is when the kids need to develop these basic skills, it is too late by U13 and beyond.
3. At BCSPL level, unfortunately, there are some serious issues still. It is very true that right now, "Elite" soccer in BC is reserved for the wealthy...This creates situations where clubs are retaining players that really are not BCSPL level ... It is starting to get the feel of private schools with the nice uniforms.
4. He is from Europe - no ties to the boys club here, completely fair tough as door nail, absolutely no BS from the parents, he will always give both positive and negative comments when it is deserved, at the right time.
5. The pyramid system is needed, however, the money at the bottom of the pyramid needs to be distributed to the higher end to bring down the total cost of "Elite" soccer hence kids with less financial assistance have a shot at getting in the top elite teams. The only way for this to really work is to integrate BCSPL Metro leagues and various clubs into a seamless entity - this is a huge undertaking that needs government intervention.

1. Yes, the lack of skill training (and tactical training) is because the coaches themselves don't have the ability or education to instruct the players in these areas.
2. You say too late by u13? I agree. Having coached u11-12 and trying to get those kids ready for BCSPL I can tell you that u11 is too late. Skill acquisition needs to begin at u5. And if we want to truly develop international level players, they should be able to complete the majority of basic skills the vast majority of the time (correctly!) by u10. So that as they enter more competitive environments they are able to apply those skills under increasing pressure every level they move up, and for every year they age.
3. This will always be the case so long as Whitecaps accept any player they want (that accepts their invitation) from the league, but doesn't provide the league with any financial compensation in return. This will always be the case as long as Canada doesn't have it's own professional league which run it's own academies. As such, our country will continue to be a 3rd world soccer nation.
4. Being from Europe (or South America) is not a requisite for being a good coach. There are plenty of good Canadian coaches that also meet those criteria you've listed. I don't know the coach you are speaking of whatsoever. But, I would suggest that your experience wouldn't be everyone's. He won't be everyone's cup of tea. But, if he is as good as you say I hope he will be put in a position (whether he is offered it or applies for it) to develop as many players possible. And, probably, if that good should be applying for a job with the Whitecaps or FC Edmonton.
5. A controversial suggestion. One that others have made many times. I would refer you to my response to #3 for my answer to your suggestion. But, if you want to create a socialist system to reduce costs for the top level of the sport so that more players of the requisite ability can enter the league then I will make another suggestion. Create a rec stream, and a competitive stream. Rec is exactly what it sounds like. Low fee's, low competition - minimal coaching and club infrastructure support. Competitive being the more costly. The rec fee's would never touch on supporting the competitive. You create 3 divisions of competitive (effectively BCSPL-MSL-Div 1/Gold) moving Silver teams into the rec stream. Some silver teams are competitive, or try to be, but a line has to be drawn. Then pool the fee's of all 3 levels and lower the costs that way. Others who are smarter than me have suggested our "super clubs" are, for the most part, trying to do too much for too many. I agree with them. Resources are far too stretched. Does a TD really need to be involved with a bottom end Silver or bronze team? No, not really. If those kids want to develop most clubs have a mechanism within which those kids can develop, or the kids can train with academies or on their own.

 

[4_the_kids]

1. Yes, the lack of skill training (and tactical training) is because the coaches themselves don't have the ability or education to instruct the players in these areas.

The need for increased and vastly improved coaching education can not be said enough. The community stream courses need to be more than show up for a weekend and get the course. Also as a vast majority of coaches are volunteer parents with minimal experience these courses need to teach coaches how to teach proper technique, its a major gap in the development at the moment. Bottom Line Coach Development is even more important than player development at this time.

3. This will always be the case so long as Whitecaps accept any player they want (that accepts their invitation) from the league, but doesn't provide the league with any financial compensation in return. This will always be the case as long as Canada doesn't have it's own professional league which run it's own academies. As such, our country will continue to be a 3rd world soccer nation.

Player transfer compensation would go along way, Right now the Whitecaps get a free ride , the only argument for this is that it might encourage them to take more local players. If they had to pay fees for the players they probably be more selective and local kids wouldn't get the same opportunities. I am not sure there is enough money in the system to fully fund it....

5. A controversial suggestion. One that others have made many times. I would refer you to my response to #3 for my answer to your suggestion. But, if you want to create a socialist system to reduce costs for the top level of the sport so that more players of the requisite ability can enter the league then I will make another suggestion. Create a rec stream, and a competitive stream. Rec is exactly what it sounds like. Low fee's, low competition - minimal coaching and club infrastructure support. Competitive being the more costly. The rec fee's would never touch on supporting the competitive. You create 3 divisions of competitive (effectively BCSPL-MSL-Div 1/Gold) moving Silver teams into the rec stream. Some silver teams are competitive, or try to be, but a line has to be drawn. Then pool the fee's of all 3 levels and lower the costs that way. Others who are smarter than me have suggested our "super clubs" are, for the most part, trying to do too much for too many. I agree with them. Resources are far too stretched. Does a TD really need to be involved with a bottom end Silver or bronze team? No, not really. If those kids want to develop most clubs have a mechanism within which those kids can develop, or the kids can train with academies or on their own.

As I have also said many times, yes we need competitive and recreational streams. For U13-U18 I think competitive can have 4 divisions made up of the BCSPL , Metro, and Div 1 as Metro and Div 1 are often split into two divisions. All these teams should have paid staff coaching or club programs , too often development from the club stops at U13 and it needs to continue right through.
U5-U7 should be club ran programs with professional coaches, using volunteer coaches to help as part of there education/ evaluation for later years ( Nov through March should be Futsal only programs )
U8-U12 - Two streams - Development and /community - Development should be three tiers and get the best coaches a club can provide ( levels of coaches kid considered i.e the coach doesn't pull up or down the kid and vise versa) and paid staff coaches should be heavily involved with training for these teams. Community teams are the traditional type of teams and tiered as required. There should be club academy offerings for those kids who want to improve and move into the development stream.

@Coldicutt : great post!

 

[TKBC]

Good post @4_the_kids .

Coach education is how we develop our players. Period. I don't know when it became "logical" that leagues develop players. They don't. Coaches do. You need to have the best with the best (for the most part) but the best will only reach their potential with quality coaching (for the most part).

Yes, paying compensation may reduce the opportunities locals get. But I doubt it.

Yes, you could have 4 competitive divs because MSL is often an "A" and "B". I was thinking MSL as just one level. If you had a competitive/rec stream separate you'd find less of the thrashings that are happening at MSL because those teams would simply be moved down a level in the competitive stream (as they should be).

Someone on twitter suggested that fees be the same regardless of level of play. I think if you go to a competitive and rec stream, you could do that. Then you'd be more likely to get the best players competing at the highest level of the competitive stream. But, you'd have to make sure you are giving the tiers below the top competitive tier equal treatment (coaching, supervision, resources, etc).

I agree what you said u5-u7 and u8-u12.

 

[4_the_kids]

Someone on twitter suggested that fees be the same regardless of level of play. I think if you go to a competitive and rec stream, you could do that. Then you'd be more likely to get the best players competing at the highest level of the competitive stream. But, you'd have to make sure you are giving the tiers below the top competitive tier equal treatment (coaching, supervision, resources, etc).

I think the cost issue has different importance to different people. The fact that TSS, FC Barcelona. Whitecaps FC academy, Roman Tullis and many more private academies all are doing well despite what i think is a ridiculous cost
(up to $700+/year on top of your regular club fees) shows people are willing to spend the money. I think its more about the value for the money than anything. So paying $2000 to $2500 per year to play BCSPL isn't so bad if what you get in return provides the value one is looking for. 3 training sessions per week, nutritionist, fitness training, exposure, better playing season and what should be top quality coaching (here is where some challenge the value as the coaching for every franchise at most age groups can be improve, its good but thee are better options around)
The additional costs for various tournaments can drive the cost up. In comparison to say the equivalent level in hockey where the costs can run $10,000+ BCSPL is fairly inexpensive.
All that said we do need to find away to break down the financial barriers that do exist for some , I know of some great kids with huge potential who will likely never get the opportunity to play at that level, parents are poor , split families, cant get to game or practices easily and simply can not afford the cost, and any support they get from various organizations will not cover the cost to play at this level. Here each situation is unique .

I think the recreational stream should be inexpensive as its a bare bones offering (jersey, one practice time, one game , community coach) say $200 - $300 per year for U8-U12 and $300-$400 for U13-U18 ( refs cost more , full field etc..) with additional costs for club academy for those wanting to improve.

The competitive stream should be more as it includes way more ( top coaching, full kits, 2-3 practice times, academy programming built in) say $600-$700 per year for U8-U12's ( that may sound like a lot yet most are already paying that much with academy fees in addition to league fees.) and say $1000 -$2500 for U13 and up depending on the level and travel requirements

As I said its more about the value being offered than it about the cost.. . It will never be perfect or fit everyone needs. I can tell you a story of kid who is now on the Whitecaps residency, his dad was very apprehensive about the costs and questioned if BCSPL was the right choice, well that same dad today thinks its was worth every penny spent and then some. Yet, on that same team there is kids who barely get the 30% playing and several other who have been cut after a year or half season, talk to those parents and BCSPL is the biggest joke and rip off going

 

[TKBC]

It bothers me to no end when ppl say "but hockey costs this much." Who cares. Doesn't mean hockey is right to charge that much.

I disagree that $2500 is reasonable (plus all the other costs that can be avoided), and I disagree that it's considered reasonable because private academies charge fees. For TSS for example most of those kids (if not all) are not in BCSPL. So their club fees are lower. Some TSS kids play just TSS (if not a lot of them?).

There's absolutely no perfect solution. Some kids will never be able to get to all the games/practices for a top league or not be able to afford it. And so kids who are good enough for the top league will still play lower league simply down to their life circumstances. There are "scholarship" opps for some kids, community programs to help with fee's for some kids. But for others who are effectively "working poor" this doesn't help them.

BCSPL probably does have to cost more than other levels. But for clubs that have BCSPL-MSL-Div 1....I say create a socialist system to balance fees. But you can be sure BCSPL can lower costs. Some clubs have multiple training kits, for example. I have heard rumour of exhorbitant coach honorariums. Lower those to ensure costs are down. Competitive/talented coaches will be drawn to the league even if the honorarium is lower. The internal competitive nature of these guys will draw them!

 

[CanadianSpur]

It bothers me to no end when ppl say "but hockey costs this much." Who cares. Doesn't mean hockey is right to charge that much.

I disagree that $2500 is reasonable (plus all the other costs that can be avoided), and I disagree that it's considered reasonable because private academies charge fees. For TSS for example most of those kids (if not all) are not in BCSPL. So their club fees are lower. Some TSS kids play just TSS (if not a lot of them?).

There's absolutely no perfect solution. Some kids will never be able to get to all the games/practices for a top league or not be able to afford it. And so kids who are good enough for the top league will still play lower league simply down to their life circumstances. There are "scholarship" opps for some kids, community programs to help with fee's for some kids. But for others who are effectively "working poor" this doesn't help them.

BCSPL probably does have to cost more than other levels. But for clubs that have BCSPL-MSL-Div 1....I say create a socialist system to balance fees. But you can be sure BCSPL can lower costs. Some clubs have multiple training kits, for example. I have heard rumour of exhorbitant coach honorariums. Lower those to ensure costs are down. Competitive/talented coaches will be drawn to the league even if the honorarium is lower. The internal competitive nature of these guys will draw them!

The balanced fee idea always get shot down by those who perceive they are subsidizing the top level "Why should I pay more so little Susie's team can have an expensive paid coach"). It also makes a potential for smaller clubs that don't have the added costs of MSL/BCSPL to offer lower fees thus potentially removing players from the larger club which could have the knock on effect of forcing them to raise fees to compensate for lower enrollment.

I'm also curious what you consider exorbitant? I wonder what level would be considered acceptable. I think the coaches compensation in BCSPL should be public. Then people can truly decide if the think they are getting value for money.

I also wonder if the compensation was reduced for some of these coaches, would they not gravitate to working in the private academies rather than coach in the leagues?

 

[4_the_kids]

Good post @4_the_kids .

Coach education is how we develop our players. Period. I don't know when it became "logical" that leagues develop players. They don't. Coaches do. You need to have the best with the best (for the most part) but the best will only reach their potential with quality coaching (for the most part).

Yes, paying compensation may reduce the opportunities locals get. But I doubt it.

Yes, you could have 4 competitive divs because MSL is often an "A" and "B". I was thinking MSL as just one level. If you had a competitive/rec stream separate you'd find less of the thrashings that are happening at MSL because those teams would simply be moved down a level in the competitive stream (as they should be).

Someone on twitter suggested that fees be the same regardless of level of play. I think if you go to a competitive and rec stream, you could do that. Then you'd be more likely to get the best players competing at the highest level of the competitive stream. But, you'd have to make sure you are giving the tiers below the top competitive tier equal treatment (coaching, supervision, resources, etc).

I agree what you said u5-u7 and u8-u12.

Seems Coquitlam Metro Ford shares a similar belief for U8-U10
http://www.cmfsc.ca/u8-u9-u10-two-streams
U8, U9, U10 Two Streams of Development | Coquitlam Metro-Ford Soccer Club

 

[CanadianSpur]

Seems Coquitlam Metro Ford shares a similar belief for U8-U10
U8, U9, U10 Two Streams of Development | Coquitlam Metro-Ford Soccer Club

The Technical team at CMFSC do a great job in trying put player development first, especially at the lower ages.