Why No Metro Players on BC Provincial Teams?

[4_the_kids]

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, there is the other side to this story.

In order for the system to work everyone needs to buy in to it and play by its rules. Choosing not to follow the system then complaining about being overlooked is a much part of the problem as anything. If making a provincial team is of importance then follow the steps, if you don't like a coach there are 4 other franchises in the lower mainland, surely one of them meets the standard your looking for providing your son is indeed of that caliber of player.

Comments like Tom Duley's foster the biggest issue we have in development in this country, everyone thinks they know better especially those who come from abroad. Because they think they know better they don't participate in the system build their own teams, play at lower levels , complain about being overlooked and how their team can beat a higher level team but that wouldn't be the case of those player were released to the higher team. I can go on and on but you get the point.

Elite level sports development requires a mind set most in this country are afraid of, these same issues exist in hockey as well. Canada only produces higher level hockey player cause there is more money , passion and things like back yard rinks where kids play all day , not in a system but just play. Whens the last time you saw a school soccer field in use after school hours with kids just paying, no parents or coaches?

There is no perfect system, it will continue to evolve, at some point in time we have to give it a chance or it will never succeed. There is a culture of soccer building in BC, the numbers are increasing the time to give a system a chance is know, if things like the cost or coaching standards are an issue we can bring our collective voice to make a difference, but choosing to play outside the system and complain to any ear willing to listen certainly will not.

 

[TKBC]

I agree with you, in theory, @4_the_kids. I appreciate you are playing Devil's Advocate. I agree BCSPL is the correct way to go. Having a top tier league, that is closed so that it can't get bloated to the huge league that Metro was, is correct. Having the best players playing with and against the other best players is also correct. Having standards for training and coaching is also correct. Changing the league calendar is also correct - MSL and Div 1 should switch to the same calendar.

But the cost and travel associated with BCSPL is far too prohibitive for many. Travel can't be resolved - unless Okanagan and Victoria are removed and replaced with Lower Mainland teams - but I disagree with that. Okanagan and Victoria need to be in the league (based on their on-field performances something has to change for them though - it isn't working for the most part) I don't think you would find anyone saying "it's not fair" that kids have to be in BCSPL to qualify for PTP if even the cost of BCSPL was reduced significantly Say $1000? I have heard from a very reliable source that part of the reason the fee's are so high is because a large percentage goes to paying the coach. Pay the coaches less. Plenty of people were coaching the top level as volunteers are receiving only meager stipends. Not to mention, I have observed myself, and heard of coaching in this league that is supposed to be of a "high standard" and it was quite honestly barely competitive standard let alone "elite" or "high standard." In addition, of all the kids I've spoken to who have chosen (not been cut, mind you) to leave BCSPL they did not leave because of money.

Also, do kids really need travel shirts, training shirts, etc etc? No. Give them a home uniform and an away uniform and they can wear the same shorts and socks for every game - there's only 8 teams so the 8 teams can plan their uniforms so no one has the same combination of colours for shorts and socks if they want.

In short, BCSPL as a requirement for PTP is right....but only in theory not in application as it currently is. Funds have to be reduced, drastically. Travel can't be changed. 8 teams means some kids will always have to travel. Travel costs money. But, the coaching standards and player standards have to be enforced. Kids and coaches have to be forced to demonstrate a minimal ability to complete certain tasks, otherwise what's the point?

Re: school fields - I see kids at my local field every day. It's the same kids, but it is kids using it! But that's a whole different topic!!

 

[socceroo]

Player pathway on paper looks technical but on field it is modelled through franchise BC SPL clubs.

Go figure where the flaw is!

 

[Tom Duley]

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, there is the other side to this story.

In order for the system to work everyone needs to buy in to it and play by its rules. Choosing not to follow the system then complaining about being overlooked is a much part of the problem as anything. If making a provincial team is of importance then follow the steps, if you don't like a coach there are 4 other franchises in the lower mainland, surely one of them meets the standard your looking for providing your son is indeed of that caliber of player.

Comments like Tom Duley's foster the biggest issue we have in development in this country, everyone thinks they know better especially those who come from abroad. Because they think they know better they don't participate in the system build their own teams, play at lower levels , complain about being overlooked and how their team can beat a higher level team but that wouldn't be the case of those player were released to the higher team. I can go on and on but you get the point.

Elite level sports development requires a mind set most in this country are afraid of, these same issues exist in hockey as well. Canada only produces higher level hockey player cause there is more money , passion and things like back yard rinks where kids play all day , not in a system but just play. Whens the last time you saw a school soccer field in use after school hours with kids just paying, no parents or coaches?

There is no perfect system, it will continue to evolve, at some point in time we have to give it a chance or it will never succeed. There is a culture of soccer building in BC, the numbers are increasing the time to give a system a chance is know, if things like the cost or coaching standards are an issue we can bring our collective voice to make a difference, but choosing to play outside the system and complain to any ear willing to listen certainly will not.

let me ask you... what's your experience, other than writing these novels you do? I went through the BC Soccer system and the National program, what have you done other than participate on an online website...sipped your coffee and insert yourself as a keyboard expert.

look at the positions in the sport before you think you know...if you don't know, don't speak!

the issues we have today existed back in the 80's, there were positions within the soccer programs run by a bunch of inept people, they've been replaced with more inept people. I particularly love this line from you:

"it will continue to evolve, at some point in time we have to give it a chance or it will never succeed."

take your head out of the ground. how many BC players have been developed over the course of the last 20 years? this Province used to develop players, how many have we produced in recent times?

we've replaced one idiot with another at UBC, son replaced father...Keith Watt's finally retired, Allan Errington is desperately trying to claw himself back into BC soccer while that guy probably caused more problems with our youth than he did any good.

Mike Findlay is NOW the assistant coach of our mens National Team...read this headline:

Canada Soccer adds experienced Michael Findlay to national staff coaching roster

do you know how ridiculous this is? Mike Findlay was barely a soccer player with Vancouver Columbus FC, he now assists out mens National team...who is Canada's president? Vic Montagliani...who did Vic play for...right...Vancouver Columbus FC...how many of Vic's friends work in BC Soccer and the White Caps?

BC Soccer is a garbage organization, you are naive to not know that. everybody in the organization has their interest, if you think the

"it will continue to evolve, at some point in time we have to give it a chance or it will never succeed." ...really? how long would you like us to wait for this so-called system to work? how long has it been since we've produced a good player here in BC, what is Canada's overall ranking in soccer...riiiiight...take a sip of coffee and carry on!

 

[rich]

@Tom Duley -

Settle down mate. This is a discussion forum...do those who not agree with you need to get shut down? @4_the_kids is bringing up points to discuss. Not claiming he has all the right answers.

 

[Tom Duley]

@Tom Duley -

Settle down mate. This is a discussion forum...do those who not agree with you need to get shut down? @4_the_kids is bringing up points to discuss. Not claiming he has all the right answers.

this was his comment about me: "Comments like Tom Duley's foster the biggest issue we have in development in this country, everyone thinks they know better especially those who come from abroad. "

the issue is and has always been the same, we've been overwhelmed with a select few that have decided the course for the rest. when I was playing through my youth, it was obvious players like Mike Mosher and some of his team-mates received preference to BC soccer and the National program because of the relationship his father had (head coach of UBC soccer) with Keith Watts (head coach of SFU). they were both directly connected to the Canadian National youth program, connected to Allan Errington as well and our teams played the exact boring 4-4-2, long ball, old English style of soccer.

Nothing has changed, other than the fact that one group was relieved of their duties for another inept group to come in and allow the entire friends...and friends of friends to prosper.

Soccer is not a rich man's sport in any other country than Canada, thats the pathetic part in all this.

 

[SoccerMom]

Tom Duley is completely correct in what he is saying. He may not be as eloquent as some might like but the buck stops at BC Soccer.

They create and set the environment in which we exist today. They create roadblocks to prevent players from playing soccer when they are supposed to do the opposite.

PL teams can not play friendlies against teams from non affiliated PL clubs. For example, no PL team can play against a CCB team.

Funny thing is CCB tried to become regional partners with Abbotsford but BC Soccer did not like that either.
It's ok to take their players.

BC Soccer is trying to protect a few clubs and their friends who run them. It is a closed shop environment which can never lead to success. Let the best rise to the top no matter which club they come from. Even TSS!!

 

[4_the_kids]

Mr Tom I could comment back, but my point is made. let me leave asking you this , if nothing has changed in 30 plus years what have or are you doing to help change it? I am not saying I agree with the system , I am saying if you want the best chances you have to play with in it, and if you can be, get involved and make your foot print from within .... Its to easy to point a finger and do nothing,,,

Soccer Mom and TKBC
I don't agree with how the BCSPL franchises were awarded, i think they should district based franchises, collectively run. Unfortunately greed and power will always be part of it and opportunities given based on what your alliances is. Kind of sounds like real life..
The cost is prohibitive and needs to be reviewed and find ways to lower it.
CCB taking over the Valley franchise never made any sense especially geographically, That franchise is now run by Langley FC . CCB and Surrey Youth both felt they should have a franchise and didn't want to be a feeder club to what they saw as smaller clubs with a franchise. Surrey Youth rebuilt and created a system and aligned with Coastal, CCB aligned with summer clubs to increase it membership in hopes of forcing BC Soccer hands by being the biggest club in Surrey and is still fighting, we see how well that is working ...They should have aligned as a partner club to Surrey United like Guildford and Langley United have,

 

[Tom Duley]

Mr Tom I could comment back, but my point is made. let me leave asking you this , if nothing has changed in 30 plus years what have or are you doing to help change it? I am not saying I agree with the system , I am saying if you want the best chances you have to play with in it, and if you can be, get involved and make your foot print from within .... Its to easy to point a finger and do nothing,,,

Soccer Mom and TKBC
I don't agree with how the BCSPL franchises were awarded, i think they should district based franchises, collectively run. Unfortunately greed and power will always be part of it and opportunities given based on what your alliances is. Kind of sounds like real life..
The cost is prohibitive and needs to be reviewed and find ways to lower it.
CCB taking over the Valley franchise never made any sense especially geographically, That franchise is now run by Langley FC . CCB and Surrey Youth both felt they should have a franchise and didn't want to be a feeder club to what they saw as smaller clubs with a franchise. Surrey Youth rebuilt and created a system and aligned with Coastal, CCB aligned with summer clubs to increase it membership in hopes of forcing BC Soccer hands by being the biggest club in Surrey and is still fighting, we see how well that is working ...They should have aligned as a partner club to Surrey United like Guildford and Langley United have,

My contribution is that I coach kids 4 days per week (select level). I also take kids from lower division than mine and invite them to train with my team and offer them opportunities to play exhibition games while most coaches only focus on getting the "best" for their team...coaching is about developing. a coach can say they've developed from a pool of the best, most people forget about those that are not playing at the highest levels at U10, U11, U12 and so on, I don't.

regarding changing the infrastructure? I've spoken to Rob Csabai at BC Soccer, he is open to change but has little power to do create the necessary changes. BC Soccer is a guarded bunch, try emailing them yourself...once you ask questions they don't appreciate, you will not receive a response.

 

[Admin]

Sometimes discussions can get heated and emotions can get the best of us... we've all been there!

Let's just try and remember to attack the points being made and not the person making them?

Cool?

@Tom Duley - I agree that the system seems to be broken and that things haven't changed too much in that regard... reshuffling the deck chairs and all that if you will.

I don't necessarily agree though with your attacking Mosher for stuff when he was a youth player? How is that really his fault?

Disclosure: I'm the same age as Mosher and know all the players growing up in that period that were on BC and National Youth teams. Mike wasn't the most talented of the bunch but had qualities that every team needs.

 

[4_the_kids]

My contribution is that I coach kids 4 days per week (select level). I also take kids from lower division than mine and invite them to train with my team and offer them opportunities to play exhibition games while most coaches only focus on getting the "best" for their team...coaching is about developing. a coach can say they've developed from a pool of the best, most people forget about those that are not playing at the highest levels at U10, U11, U12 and so on, I don't.

regarding changing the infrastructure? I've spoken to Rob Csabai at BC Soccer, he is open to change but has little power to do create the necessary changes. BC Soccer is a guarded bunch, try emailing them yourself...once you ask questions they don't appreciate, you will not receive a response.

Thank you for coaching and dedicating your time, and not forgetting about the lower levels. I would say one of the biggest issues we have is house / rec player aren't developed, they don't get or have development focused coaches which is what they need.
As for BC Soccer perhaps if enough show up to the AGM and such change can be forced. One or two of us isn't enough. This forum can be used to create that movement.

 

[Tom Duley]

Sometimes discussions can get heated and emotions can get the best of us... we've all been there!

Let's just try and remember to attack the points being made and not the person making them?

Cool?

@Tom Duley - I agree that the system seems to be broken and that things haven't changed too much in that regard... reshuffling the deck chairs and all that if you will.

I don't necessarily agree though with your attacking Mosher for stuff when he was a youth player? How is that really his fault?

Disclosure: I'm the same age as Mosher and know all the players growing up in that period that were on BC and National Youth teams. Mike wasn't the most talented of the bunch but had qualities that every team needs.

"I'm the same age as Mosher ...." - then we most likely know each other. I grew up playing on a very strong team...Domo (since we were kids) and Nick Dasovic (who came for our last couple of years) are two players that were at my club, we always knew Mike was there because of his dad's relationship, not his merit, but I agree, not his fault...and yes, he was very limited but physical...nowhere near the calibre required to play his role.

The challenge I have with BC Soccer is they have taken the important part out, development, now it's becoming a business. I see it at my club as well. Field time is given to the academy while most teams share a 40 x 40 space on any given night...if you aren't part of the academy and aren't paying, you can easily be overlooked and often are...especially if you're enrolled in a different academy!

Admin, how is it possible that most of Columbus FC's alumni are now paid associates of both BC Soccer and the White Caps?

If you're part of Mosher's generation, then you full-well know that Mike Findlay was at best a sub for his club, grew up never spending a day being exposed to a professional environment and yet, the headline on the CSA website said "Canada Soccer adds experienced Michael Findlay to national staff coaching roster"...I nearly choked on my morning coffee when I saw that! EXPERIENCED?

 

[rich]

I also coach rep level, and bring in kids from the lower levels...I consider it my job to put kids into the levels above me, if that is what they want to do...never about "my" team or "my" players. For goodness sake, I already have "my" kids...I don't need to take ownership of anyone else's into that! (that's a joke to lighten the mood, people.)

Sure, BC Soccer needs to shoulder a good portion of the blame..but shouldn't they be taking direction from the CSA? (Pandora's box - opened. Everyone duck). However, BC Soccer is not the villain here. Could the real issue be the collective apathy of the membership? Fine to rant on in a forum of like minded people...but as @4_the_kids mentions, no one shows up at the AGMs. Therefore there is no voice, and they do not have to respond. We have enough problems at club and district levels, where all the attention is focussed.

I'm not providing any solutions, because that's for smarter people than me. Just saying that it's not an easy fix, and whatever the fix is will take some time.

My $0.02 (CDN).

 

[Tom Duley]

Thank you for coaching and dedicating your time, and not forgetting about the lower levels. I would say one of the biggest issues we have is house / rec player aren't developed, they don't get or have development focused coaches which is what they need.
As for BC Soccer perhaps if enough show up to the AGM and such change can be forced. One or two of us isn't enough. This forum can be used to create that movement.

I have my doubts anything will change, I actually believe those within BC Soccer would not allow it to change.

The only thing we, as parents/coaches/citizens can do is to try and make a positive impression on those we coach. to offer an opportunity to develop, to provide a culture for the sport and to hope that we leave them a good experience and that they live for the rest of their lives with the passion and good experience's we've provided for them.

I am disappointed, very disappointed with the direction soccer has gone. I've know Vic for many years, played soccer with and against him and travelled with him, he was always a credible guy with amazing values...so I now wonder, are these policies and decisions within the soccer communities in Canada, above even him? does he just toe the company line?

the one thing I do know is he's offered his buddies employment opportunities, Mike Findlay is one of them. one of his other friends was a cop...the cop retired and now works for the Vancouver White Caps...the list goes on and on and on...

 

[SoccerMom]

CCB taking over the Valley franchise never made any sense especially geographically,

It makes sense for players and entire teams to play in different geographical areas?
It makes sense to bus kids to the Okanogan and Island ?

Prohibiting CCB from becoming partners with Abbotsford only helped Surrey United and Coastal.

PS. Didn't make sense giving Abbotsford a club with 800 players a franchise either. Before PL Coastal consisted of two struggling clubs (Semiahmoo & Peace Arch) where boys had ZERO presence in the game and girls were at best bottom 3rd.

But guess what they got a Franchise and today are a big club. Hmmmm.

If PL is about creating better soccer players BC Soccer got it wrong and continues to go down a road which will only create more problems.

Cream rises to the Top.

At U13 all Clubs should be allowed to put top teams into a league. If clubs want to work together to create this team more power to them. Top 8 teams after season ends are the U14 PL team. Exclude Okanogan and Island from league play which will reduce cost. Allow them to Challenge PL Cup.

Every Club gets a chance to participate equally which should create better results.

First there was IPL, then came Y-League, and now we have HPL. All different attempts.
We need to go back to the drawing board and tweak this again to include all clubs to get a better version.

Note to BC Soccer:

Stop putting up road blocks to try and prevent non PL clubs from participating

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." William Arthur Ward

BC Soccer Please try and inspire us!!

 

[Tom Duley]

I also coach rep level, and bring in kids from the lower levels...I consider it my job to put kids into the levels above me, if that is what they want to do...never about "my" team or "my" players. For goodness sake, I already have "my" kids...I don't need to take ownership of anyone else's into that! (that's a joke to lighten the mood, people.)

Sure, BC Soccer needs to shoulder a good portion of the blame..but shouldn't they be taking direction from the CSA? (Pandora's box - opened. Everyone duck). However, BC Soccer is not the villain here. Could the real issue be the collective apathy of the membership? Fine to rant on in a forum of like minded people...but as @4_the_kids mentions, no one shows up at the AGMs. Therefore there is no voice, and they do not have to respond. We have enough problems at club and district levels, where all the attention is focussed.

I'm not providing any solutions, because that's for smarter people than me. Just saying that it's not an easy fix, and whatever the fix is will take some time.

My $0.02 (CDN).

great post!

As long as people prosper from the business side and the development is second, it will never change!

 

[TKBC]

@Tom Duley -

Settle down mate. This is a discussion forum...do those who not agree with you need to get shut down? @4_the_kids is bringing up points to discuss. Not claiming he has all the right answers.

Agreed - Tom. No need to get so upset with an opinion that clearly said "devil's advocate."

Re: Findlay - many raised much more than an eye brow when he got that job. My question was "who has he developed? what has he done to merit this position?" Many said "no one and nothing." I know nothing of Findlay personally, professionally or otherwise. So I was just asking the question. Those who know, answered. Most of them were public about it!

For me the entire PTP/provincial coach program has to be changed, and drastically. No more ivory tower. Get these supposed experts out into the field coaching the players and the coaches/TD's. I have spoken with Csabai a lot. If we had more of him we'd be in a great position. His abilities are best suited to teaching - so let's let him teach. Regularly. All the time. Players and coaches.

I think the PTP should become regional. More far reaching than the BCSPL is. BCSPL can say. But create sort of "super regions" and create 8-10 PTP's (this is 16-20 coaches - one for each gender) in the province. Have the PTP coaches living in that region and teaching the players on the ground there, and the coaches, boards, volunteers. Etc. I guarantee you if you had this these coaches would be finding players in Silver, house, Gold etc and saying "get them on the PTP" and this policy of BCSPL-or-bust would go away very quickly. (I have said before the theory of BCSPL is correct, but requires adaptation to truly succeed). The issue is what coaches with the right credentials are going to want to spend so much time living and working in the nether regions of the province. It may be that compromises are made and some areas of the province have no local PTP coach or kids have to travel to the biggest city in the region but nothing is perfect.

 

[TKBC]

Soccer is not a rich man's sport in any other country than Canada, thats the pathetic part in all this.

Imagine if Brazil or France had our pathway? Ronaldinho and Zidane would not exist.

 

[TKBC]

Soccer Mom and TKBC
I don't agree with how the BCSPL franchises were awarded, i think they should district based franchises, collectively run. Unfortunately greed and power will always be part of it and opportunities given based on what your alliances is. Kind of sounds like real life..
The cost is prohibitive and needs to be reviewed and find ways to lower it.
CCB taking over the Valley franchise never made any sense especially geographically, That franchise is now run by Langley FC . CCB and Surrey Youth both felt they should have a franchise and didn't want to be a feeder club to what they saw as smaller clubs with a franchise. Surrey Youth rebuilt and created a system and aligned with Coastal, CCB aligned with summer clubs to increase it membership in hopes of forcing BC Soccer hands by being the biggest club in Surrey and is still fighting, we see how well that is working ...They should have aligned as a partner club to Surrey United like Guildford and Langley United have,

BCSPL teams are basically district-based. They just aren't district run. Every district is covered from Okanagan to Victoria. Should Surrey have 2? Probably - but with Coastal having a franchise they basically do. And, locating it in White Rock gives kids from Surrey, Langley, White Rock, Delta, and Richmond all relatively easy access. I guess it depends on what you mean by district. Do you mean, for example, Fraser Valley district (Chwk-Abby-Langley-Aldergrove) or do you mean District 5?

Correct, CCB taking over Abby made no sense geographically. But, TBH it does make sense re: where the best players are located. Of course those best players from the CCB and neighbouring communities can drive to any number of other BCSPL franchises that are within a reasonable distance. Moving the Abby franchise to Langley makes sense. Abby was struggling for a lot of reasons. I hope they can get the franchise back some day because they are of course smack dab in the middle of the district and have an excellent TD.

I agree _ CCB should be aligning with either Surrey United or Coastal. Be partners, no competitors.

 

[TKBC]

Disclosure: I'm the same age as Mosher and know all the players growing up in that period that were on BC and National Youth teams. Mike wasn't the most talented of the bunch but had qualities that every team needs.

At the PTP/national team level you select the best players. Period. The only exception being if a "best player" has a poor attitude.