Season opening weekend

[easoccer]

I think there are 2, maybe 3 teams in that division that are continually better than the rest, and the drop off after that seems pretty large from past history... I guess the lower divisions are always going to have these kinds of issues when tiering is left to the clubs?

The clubs dont really manage that. They can request where the team goes at the beginning of the season, but I think George Riddell does the tiering during the season if I'm correct. I know if you are getting hammered you can request your district rep to drop you a division.

Whats the worst that could happen if you went to Gold? a .500 season? Thats perfect if you ask me. That means you are with your peers. Undefeated in 2 years leave no challenge for the players.

 

[juninho]

I stand corrected if it's George who does the tiering based on club suggestions... and I can't say as I disagree with your logic. I'm sure there are lots of examples of this kind of thing in the 'lower divisions'.

 

[rich]

And they should be moved based on results up to Thanksgiving.....that's what is supposed to happen over the break. Not sure what voodoo happens to decide who moves and who doesn't.

Sometimes it's tough with the smaller clubs. The top players on a Div 2 team like Ladner's maybe should be playing Div 1. However, if the team is moved up, the bottom 5 players are struggling to compete at that level...

 

[easoccer]

There is more to it. Politics. Last year my team was 11-1. Undefeated at teiring. I expected to be moved up at Thanksgiving but wasn't. I enquired with my club about it and was told that from 12 teams put forward to be moved up only a couple were. All at the top of our divisions. Other clubs protested that our club would have too many teams in the division. I was specifically told George handles it. (Conversely my older sons team was winless at Xmas break and I requested a drop that was approved.)

This year I requested to be moved up but was told again we have club teams in that division and to hope for tiering. I didn't protest as I had 1/3 of my team change over summer soccer.

So from what I can gather your club can request (easier prior to season) the division they play, and clubs can request their teams be tiered up/down but ultimately the changes are put through by George (hopefully after a district meeting? ).

 

[rich]

Of course there's politics involved, this is youth sports

 

[TKBC]

Agreed if a team is unbeaten for 2 years really they should be moved up without question - but a remark that "the bottom 5 players would struggle" is likely true as well. The bottom 5 may be perfectly suited to D2 but the top 10 or so players on the team being obviously suited to D1. It's not an easy choice because you don't want the bottom 5 to quit. Although you would think there is equal risk to losing the stronger players to a higher level.

Now, should a team that is 0-0-5 and have a GD of -21 be automtically relegated at Thanksgiving? Some might say yes. I say no. There are things that may have been going on those 1st 5 games that are not indicative of the overall quality of the team - roster change, injury, illness, vacations, new coach, new league or any number of other things. Don't ever rush to judgement on youth teams you aren't associated with directly. ....don't judge teams on their start, especially if you don't know them.

Automatic promotion-relegation is a big NO for youth sports in my book. But if one season a team is smashed or dominates and retains a large portion of their squad, they should be promoted/relegated as appropriate without discussion. (although not from Gold/D1 to MSL automatically as that is a bigger committment)

 

[easoccer]

Some clubs evaluate all club players while others only evaluate div 1 and metro level. Ensuring players play where they should is important, but ultimately is tough as most coaches like to keep a team together.

Easiest would be Top and bottom 2 teams move up or down at Thanksgiving, and then again at Xmas break regardless of club.

However I would prefer a dynamic approach. If a team wins 3 in a row they automatically move up, lose 3 they go down. I guess this would be a nightmare to schedule.

 

[TKBC]

Automatic pro-rel for youth sports is detrimental to youth development. We already have coaches who coach to win rather than develop players. Throw in pro-rel and it will only worsen. Our country needs to develop players, not kids who can win Div 1 trophies or avoid relegation from div 2 to 3.

Moving teams up and down levels has to be case-by-case. I have seen MANY examples over the years of teams that struggle greatly in the first month only to roll over everyone as the season move on, and I have seen MANY examples of the exact opposite.

I can understand (and agree) requiring an unbeaten team to move up (though not necessarily from Div 1 to MSL) or a winless team down - but only during the off-seasons.

If my team that was 0-0-5 at Thanksgiving last year had been moved down to Div 2 the players would have been bored, some would have quit. As it was they reversed their GD by+40 over the remaining games of the season and the choice to leave them in Div1 was the right one.

 

[easoccer]

Problem is most technical directors aren't tracking below div 1. They should be. All div should be treated equaly from top to bottom and players evaluated regularly.

I can't speak for other areas but I can say for sure that some coaches in surrey will threaten to move the team if they don't get their way and the clubs generally comply.

Your team may be an exception but there were at least 5 teams in u14 div 2 last year with 1 win or less and a huge negative goal differential. They are back in div 2 again this year. Teams we beat multiple times over the summer. We are in div 3. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

 

[easoccer]

The problem is the system as it is now is not adequate. No one is saying that software should take care of it, but to eliminate tiering during season play is folly. And if your team wasn't strong at Thanksgiving, gets relegated, then rolls over everyone, they will be promoted again in Nov or December. I have seen teams jump up several tiers in district Cup if they are strong. So really you could have finished in the same spot. It's the teams that are strong at Thanksgiving, are not promoted, and end up with a dominant season that isn't really right. They could miss provincials but still tier high in district Cup.

 

[rich]

We were one of those teams in U14 Div 2..although we had a whole two wins. We played the top Div 3 teams after Christmas when we were retiered and beat them all. Some quite handily. I would rather take the season of losing, and challenging my players, then drop down at Thanksgiving and have to play the bottom teams of Div 3. We wouldn't have learned anything, and at U13-14-15, they are still learning how to play the 11 v 11 game. That's more important than winning a couple games in October / November.

Speaking only of Div 1-4. MSL and HPL obviously have different priorities.

I want the kids to learn, and improve. They did that through the year. How many teams do you see playing absolutely deplorable hoof and hope long ball, that win games out of sheer athleticism? Is that truly "winning?" Those teams get found out as everyone catches up to them in size, and speed. Seen it happen many times, in 20 years of coaching.

 

[easoccer]

I believe the top 3 teams in our group were tied in cup play or were within a point, so no one really ran over the other. Even the final was 4-3.

Don't you think the single div 3 team in our group deserved to have some game time in div 2? Could have helped them develop.

Oh and pace is just as much a part of the game as skill.

 

[rich]

Sure, maybe they did deserve time in Div 2. If they could compete with the mid-tier and top teams...while playing to develop, not struggling to compete. That's the grey area that TD's or whoever need to assess, and they have such a limited time to assess it.

And even Christmas re-teiring is suspect. Why was Div 3 runner up CCB tiered up, but first place CMF not? Those are questions for people much smarter than me.

Seriously, stop trying to make an imperfect system perfect. That's how you become a chain-smoking, alcoholic hermit who mumbles incoherently to themselves and never comes out of the basement.

(That last part was humour. A joke. Lightening the mood...this is a game, right?

And of course pace is important. But pace without skill = Darren Mattocks Pace without skill and intelligence = Erik Hurtado. It's intelligence that needs to be developed, and kids can't do that under constant pressure.

Anyway...off to the Caps game....

 

[easoccer]

Disclaimer (Cobras is my team and we have played in the final, a 4-3 loss to I assume your team, our team the only div 3 in our group). The Div 3 top teams did represent well against Div 2 competition as all made the District finals and played div 2 teams. The CCB Kings won their final against CMF Sparta I believe.

To answer your question:

Div 3 had 3 strong teams. (You could say 4 as LUS Eburne did quite well also, but played div 3 competition in District Cup)

CCB Kings were tiered to Div 2 at thanksgiving.
CCB Cobras & CMF Sparta.

CCB Kings and CCB Cobras were undefeated at tiering and CMF Sparta was not. The CCB Cobras beat them 1-0. CMF Finished first place, but should not have. CCB Cobras should have as the tie breaker is head to head (both were 11-1). They went with GF instead. FYI Sparta did go 2 seasons with only a single loss prior to last season cup (to CCB Cobras). a Great accompishment and are now in Div 2. They certainly deserve it.

Regardless, even in District Cup, Sparta was placed in the higher group (above ours). So they were in fact tiered higher.

 

[easoccer]

Last point before I go to my daughters u7 practice.

Tiering is tough. IF a team keeps the same name, club, etc the history could be tracked. This is not going to happen. Players move teams, the dynamic changes. In truth autmatically relegating a team may not be very accurate.

The 4th strongest team could face the top 3 teams before the break and be winless, while the mid level team could face the bottom 3 and be world beaters. I guess after thinking about it TBKC has some really valid points to his argument. The only thing that could solve it all is a full time Beautiful mind who can look at all the stats, player cards, and figure it out that way...lol

Anyways this horse has been beaten to death. Like Rich said you could go mad trying to fix this.

Rich, lost 1/3 of my team this year, picked up some good ones, not sure how it will all play out. Hope to see you guys on the field again soon.

 

[hervb]

We were one of those teams in U14 Div 2..although we had a whole two wins. We played the top Div 3 teams after Christmas when we were retiered and beat them all. Some quite handily. I would rather take the season of losing, and challenging my players, then drop down at Thanksgiving and have to play the bottom teams of Div 3. We wouldn't have learned anything, and at U13-14-15, they are still learning how to play the 11 v 11 game. That's more important than winning a couple games in October / November.

Speaking only of Div 1-4. MSL and HPL obviously have different priorities.

I want the kids to learn, and improve. They did that through the year. How many teams do you see playing absolutely deplorable hoof and hope long ball, that win games out of sheer athleticism? Is that truly "winning?" Those teams get found out as everyone catches up to them in size, and speed. Seen it happen many times, in 20 years of coaching.

You nailed it Rich, if we want to challenge and develop players they should be playing as strong of competition as possible. This year in our division a team who was div 1 last year dropped down to div 2. 8 gold level players remain. The reasoning was we won't win. Isnt the idea to develop players? Why not challenge players who played div 2 last year to move up and improve.

Hope to see you on the field soon, although it doesn't look it will happen in the regular season!

 

[TKBC]

I guess after thinking about it TBKC has some really valid points to his argument. The only thing that could solve it all is a full time Beautiful mind who can look at all the stats, player cards, and figure it out that way...lol

LOL nah, it just takes coaches who have reasonable appreciation of where their team is at, and TD's who are paying attention.

 

[Regs]

Good discussion happening!

While it has veered off topic, I'll let this thread go in different directions for now and 'clean' it up later.

For those who believe youth soccer is all about developing players, can I ask the question: developing for what?

 

[easoccer]

We need to be realistic though. Div 4 and 3 are considered recreational. Generally these teams get one practice a week. Div 2 and up usually get Turf time 2x per week. Not to mention in some clubs Div 2 is selected. At least that has been my experience. So when someone looks down on them as "Athletic" it kind of irks me. Especially when the team can sometimes pull themselves up from the bottom. Over the years I have develpoed many players in Div 3. Several were even first year players that had only athletic ability. For example. This year at tryouts a longterm player from my team went to Metro, 2 to Gold, and 3 to Silver. The year before another went to Gold. Each year we lose players and each year we start off poorly and end up doing fine. We do play year around so we have time to get players to buy in. So if you are "Truly" developing players then you should be doing everything in your power to make sure the "Player" is where he/she should be, not neccesarily your team. The real problem is coaches who do everything in their power to keep star players down because they want to win. Or a coach with 4 players who should be 2 divisions above who keep the team going in a division the team shouldnt be in, all the while several others sit on the bench. (This is not pointing fingers at anyone here)

 

[TKBC]

Good post @easoccer - congrats on your developmental successes.