Role of the TD & making teams

Discussion in 'Youth Leagues & Cups' started by Soccer_dude, May 25, 2016.

  1. Soccer_dude

    Soccer_dude Member

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    I'm interested in getting a discussion going about coaches thoughts regarding TD of clubs basically picking teams with little to no input from the head coach. It seems the trend is that the head coach has no say in who he wants for the team HE, not the TD will be coaching.

    I knew someone who's been coaching for a while & he was new to the club & got given a team he didn't know too much about..was a gold team. He has no kids on the team, just coaching for the love of the game.The year went ok, good not great, different approach & style from the previous year & coach, I think gains were made as the year came to a close but with a few tweaks to the coaches delight, plus adding a few more players, the team could really be something good the following season. Coach gives his evaluations to the TD pointing out the necessary changes that should be made thinking he'd once again get the same team next season only to find out he didn't get the team, which went to a parent coach which I assume the team stayed completely intact from the last year. This will be the 3rd year in a row with this team having a new coach. Where's the consistency?

    This leads to my next point, should coaches be given more than one year with a certain team to really judge success? In the example above, the new coach each year has had to change the previous coaches tactics, formation & basically start from scratch again. Can that be good for a team? This teams style will be changed for a third year in a row.

    To the original point though, I truly believe for all gold level teams, the TD & head coach should have a meeting discussing the formation of the team opposed to just having the TD make the team & sending an email giving an attachment of the final team roster. How is this process for most clubs?? Silver , Bronze, Div 2-3 , I don't think matters too much for formal meetings, but definitely gold.

    I think the only negative for a coach getting all the power to pick his own team is he might play favouritism with a few players, but a coach in it for the right reasons won't play those games. Same can be said with the TD though if he picks the team because he has certain parents on the board or coordinators etc that the trade off is the kid has to play high level to keep the parents happy even if the player is not a high caliber one.
     
  2. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Difficult scenario. A blanket rule can't apply to every club, every age, or every team.

    First, I think TD's really only need be involved from Div 1/Gold and up. Silver is, no offense, rec. (yes, I know there are exceptions), and yes I know some in gold are "rec", and some would say BCSPL is rec! It all depends on perspective. But a line need be drawn somewhere, so I say silver is rec as a line that has to be drawn.

    Second, I think teams should be picked based on the performances from the season prior. Then hold trials for new/interested players to compete against incumbents or to fill spots that are vacated from the previous years roster.

    Third, coaches and TD's should be watching the trials together. And the coaches feedback for the course of the previous season should be submitted to the TD (and this also requires TD's watching training and games for these teams!).

    Coaches should submit their roster ideas to the TD. TD's then make suggestions if they think different. BUT, the TD is the "expert" and should certainly have final say.

    But, as I said, every club/team is a bit different. For example, a parent volunteer coach will likely need more direction from the TD than does a staff coach in the club who also runs their own team.

    Re: the team having 3 coaches in 3 years. That's difficult. But, the coach didn't have a child on the team and maybe the team he was moved to needed him more than the team he was at. The TD would have the bigger picture perspective.
     
  3. easoccer

    easoccer Established Member

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    I would say its the opposite here. Coaches find players and manage their own teams. The club usually assigns unknowns to d4 or 3.
     
  4. Soccer_dude

    Soccer_dude Member

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    Good responses.. I like the idea that teams should be picked on the past years performances but I also think at that point, the coach should decide who he wants & doesn't want straight up. He's around the team at least 3x a week & knows the players inside out more then the TD. Clubs are big now a days & the TD might not have enough time to watch the team in depth to make such a decision where as the coach knows everything about his team & players.

    In the example above, the coach I knew had 17 players on his roster, wanted to cut 3-4 players who didn't really belong at that level, bring in a couple of new players (3) have a 16 man roster & go from there, but because he got moved to a new team, he couldn't have his "own" team. He got moved to another team, again starting from scratch with a "given" team instead of his own. Point is, the TD is making the team opposed to the coach. I don't think that's the way to go.
     
  5. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    The club assigns unknowns to D3 or 4...? Do they not assess them first?
     
  6. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Like I said. Not sure there can be a blanket rule or guide for each team/club on this.
     
  7. easoccer

    easoccer Established Member

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    In all my years of coaching I have not heard of it, however Im sure that the player would be evaluated by the coach taking the player on. I have not heard of a TD evaluating any players outside of evaluations unless they were identified first. And even at evaluations I have attended the TD is much less involved than the coach.
     
  8. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    I meant - don't they evaluate these new guys at tryouts? They put them directly on d3-4?
     
  9. easoccer

    easoccer Established Member

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    Most unknows dont go to evals they just register. I know of at least 3 good silver level players who tried out at Coastal, were not selected and told to register in house. This from a team that won 2 games in 2 years. At those evals the D1 coach watched 1/2 the players while the D2 coach watched the others. Occasionaly players went back and forth. 32 total players for 2 teams and several were not selected. The TD was chatting up parents over the 2 days.

    I guess returning players get dibs regardless of their quality vs the new players.

    This has also been my experience with other clubs.

    Of course if a new player was spectacular Im sure there would be an exception.
     
  10. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    Some great responses here. And as it has been said there is no blanket solution. I think every age group, team , club has its own unique challenges.
    I have been at clubs where coaches pick the teams and the TD maybe adds a piece or two . I have seen it where the TD or eval staff makes the selections, with input from the prior year coach. Both have there pros and cons.
    The system I have been most happy with from my experience through the U10 to U13 years ( I think its a bit different after U13)
    Select team coaches have to apply and be awarded the position. Incumbent , experience, coach certifications, kids level , team needs all part of the equation. This level of team deserves the best possible coaches...
    Prior to evals TD should sit down with each select coach for their year end evals of their team, TD or staff should have good reads on these kids through on going evals during the year, whether via staff coach sessions, academies watching games etc.. so opinions shouldn't vary much. Its amazing how a good TD seems to know most of the clubs top players by name...
    Evals are at year end, current teams are dissolved and every one comes to evals to be placed on a select team. no show no selection.
    Teams are selected by TD / eval committee based on results from on field evals, coaches eval and on going evals. . It is best when the coach isn't seen as hand picking the team protecting kids and such. Kids move up and down easier this way as well.
    Now after U13 so U14 to U18 it might be a bit different, it shouldn't be but I suspect it is as fringe players quit around that age, players decide their commitment level more etc... Coaches probably have a better read on the players , issues, maturity etc.. There is less focus on development and more focus on results or the game itself. Metro/ BCSPL should still be through open evals, i am guessing though evals are only used to fill holes not teams by this age, the core group is excepted to stay together through these years.
     
  11. 4_the_kids

    4_the_kids Active Member

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    Usually new players are encouraged to sign up for the academy so they can be evaluated through out the year and often have to play a year at lower level then make the team through evals the following year. My son and I switched clubs last year played div 3 , went to academy and now he's been selected to a div 1 team, another player on the team played house as a new player last year followed the same path and got selected. I know of at least three clubs where this is the process, especially if you missed the evals regardless of how talented. The exceptional might get invited out to a game or two , or to practice with a top team but wouldn't be placed until the following year. However if the the exceptional was at evals they probably make the top team.
    I will say though as a new player to the club player you really have to above what is currently available within the club to get a sniff, if your an equal or like talent to what currently exits your are going to have to go through the process I listed above to get noticed.
     
  12. Krutov

    Krutov Member

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    I have a situation where I would like to hear your opinions on regarding the TD role and "new" coach for a U16 Metro team. This team has been very poor in the first 3 years of Metro and really should not have been in the league as their were very few players that attended tryouts so half of the team were not Metro level players. This season the new coach came from a different club and along with him came an additional dozen players to tryouts. These players never attended before(but that is another story).

    Having said this the new coach who had not seen the team play except for the last 30 minutes of their cup game. He was provided all the data for the returning players including commitment levels, technical abilities and attitude. These were provided so the coach would have the information to aid in his selections as this was from ongoing evaluations from the previous season(s).

    Myself and the TD of the club throughout the season were in agreement on the players that can play at a Metro level. It was easy as there were only 6 or 7.

    Going into tryouts it was pretty easy to figure out that the new coach that brought along with him the new trialists from his club there were going to be changes. Changes needed to be made so that is all ok.

    The selections were made and 9 of the 11 returning players were chosen. One of the players that was not chosen missed half of the training sessions and multiple games but he was also one of the players with the technical ability to play at Metro. This exclusion could be justified. The other player not chosen was arguably in the top 3 players on the team. He was chosen as the player of the game by the Metro coaches in 5 of the 20 games played this past season. FYI Coaches are required to submit players of the games for both teams at the conclusion of the games. One of the players that were selected missed over 40% of training sessions, missed multiple games without any notice and displayed very little knowledge of the game. A few other players with similar characteristics were selected as well but I do not need to go into them as I am sure you can see where I am going with this. The club TD was aware of all these issues and is also not in agreement with the selections.

    What role should the TD play in speaking with the new coach in player selection? The other oddity that has left me wondering is that the coach chose 15 players, 2 of which were goalies. This decision has left a committed and proven player at the Metro level with only a poor div1B team or div2 team to play on without very long commutes multiple days of the week. The boy has been given no reason why he was not selected even though the question has been asked. He knows as well as his old teammates know he is a better player than most of the boys selected. Almost all of them reached out to ask if he was given a reason as to what was going on. The new coach did not even select a complete roster. There is a very disillusioned soccer player in the system.

    Thoughts?
     
  13. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Tough scenario. I'll add that if a player has the technical ability and is being voted as a top MSL player but is missing training/games then they must be cut. They aren't a MSL player. They're a house player. Period. If there are off-field issues causing them to miss they need to communicate this with the coach otherwise the coach can't support/plan/adapt as appropriate. But even if they do that they may still need to be dropped/cut. The player that missed a lot but was selected anyway - there may well be circumstances you aren't aware of.

    15 players but 2 are goalies? A bit odd. Maybe the back-up GK can play dual positions? Maybe there's a couple in-coming players that need to be assessed which may bring the total up to 16-18 (16 is best for games, but 18 is great for training purposes!), or maybe the coaches plan is to use permits in the beginning of the season to further assess.

    As for the role of the TD? At the MSL level, I suggest to you the functioning of the team is, in the end, the responsibility of the TD.

    11 players returned from the poor team the year before. 9 were selected. Of the two that were not selected 1 had poor attendance. But of the 9 that were selected 1 had poor attendance. 12 new players followed the coach to tryouts and of those 12 another 5 were selected bring the team up to 15 players. The assumption then is that although only 6-7 of the previous team were capable metro players, and 2 of those were cut bring that number down to 4-5 of the previous team being on this, that the 12 new players who came only brought about 5-6 who were MSL level. Sounds like the team has increased depth, internal team competitiveness (including at GK which is critical and very good for training - two goalies at practice!), and eliminated at least 1 player that was talented but showed-up whenever they felt like and surely was harming team morale as a result. I think in the end, hopes should be increased for a more competitive team in the u16 season. The coach also will be refreshed and may have some new ideas to bring to the table!
     
  14. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    If a player emails saying "I am new, can I tryout for a team" in say, August, or October, my first response is "where have you played, what level?" If the kid says "gold" then that kid should tryout at gold. Maybe the kid gets placed d3, or maybe the kid is placed d1 or higher.... but the issue will be if there is room on a team as well. If I already have 16-17 players a new kid would have to be quite talented to make the team, and even then they'd be at the bottom of the squad list for a period while they "earned it" in the eyes of their peers. But some might say 16 is a "full" team and that's fine too - in which case the kid has to play on a lower level for the remainder of the year - but could fill in with permits and join for training as appropriate.
     
  15. Soccer_dude

    Soccer_dude Member

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    I like these types of responses. First and foremost, judging from the msl standings and going into the U16 year, this has to be the Fraser Valley team I assume. Saying the coach came from another "club" while there are multiple clubs in the district opposed to the other teams that it potentially can be (NV, RFC & CMF)

    To answer the q, if the TD is aware of the situation and not happy with certain players selected, he needs to step in and make the necessary changes. But I have a feeling this team has a weak core and the new players that came with the coach are from the gold level? coach coming up from the gold level while bringing some of his players I think is the case here? It's probably a case of slim pickings and this age level with the kids. But the formation of the team definitely seems odd... I can agree why the first player you mentioned got cut..but the problem of the team stems from the third player you mentioned...missing practice, 40% of games, no soccer iq, these are poor traits and if there are more players that have these characteristics, the team will definitely suffer from character issue's and players that have no heart and just don't care. That lack of effort will definitely rub off on the other players in a negative way. If the TD know's this, why are these players being selected? This is a case where it seems like the TD can't seem to put the hammer down and really shake things up. I'd rather have the first two players you mentioned, and cut the third player and all the players that follow suit. That top 3 player who was voted mvp 5/20 games probably already made the new team he went to pretty happy. Add that the last player you mentioned not making it without a reason is pretty poor too. That's not right. That just comes down to politics and a coach that doesn't know what he's doing.

    15 players, 2 goalies so 13 outfield players, doesn't seem like a recipe for success especially since it's already a weak team... I always say 16 players is ideal. I mean, if you have one solid goalie, take one goalie, no need for two. In the odd case he gets injured or he misses a game, call up from the lower level. I wouldn't waste a roster spot on another goalie, but gold is different from metro so I can see why that would happen. Basically, the TD brought in the new coach, gave him the reigns to make this team his own (which is great) but it seems like he didn't do a good job selecting the team which is too bad because I could only dream of that situation. But if I'm the TD and don't like his choices, I'd say monitor these specific players he's not happy with and if they aren't with the program by a certain point of the season (lack of commitment, heart, energy, passion), drop them to the next lower level and call someone else up who's deserved the spot. Just really monitor the progress of these troublesome players ...
     
  16. Soccer_dude

    Soccer_dude Member

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    This is interesting...I kind of like that process of playing at a lower level and really proving yourself in getting that chance the following year to make the top team. I guess the drawback is, if the player is really good, he could easily just go to another team instead of playing the year at silver or bronze (div 2 or 3)

    If it was me though, say I had 14 or 15 kids, and this really good player came to me looking for a home, he comes to the practices, impresses me etc, I'm taking him. Whether it's August or November, I'm locking him up.

    But I like the process as a whole. If the player does indeed go play the year at a lower level, definitely shows a great attitude and character to want to work for the top team the following year. Hard working players are always the best to have.
     
  17. Krutov

    Krutov Member

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    The player that was one of the top players on the team and selected multiple times was cut without a reason given. Attendance was exceptional, effort exceptional, easy going kid and got along with everyone.

    Neither goalie can play out on the field and as far as I know/heard there is no plan to call up players

    The TD was in a difficult position in which to enforce his TD powers as this "new" coach is very good and sits in a pretty lofty position within his own club. The TD is an excellent person that was in a tough spot on this one. Unfortunately I think he wanted to do what was best for the player but politics made it very difficult. IMO this boy was cut because his father had been the coach of the team for many years and the new coach wanted nothing to do with that. I am talking about one boy and one team but he has been impacted greatly by this one little political decision. According to the father their was no known reason for the coach to do this as he believed they had had a good relationship going back 10 years.

    There is a lot of chatter on this board about improving the standards of Canadian soccer and LTPD on a much larger scale. How is this a "player first" decision? Without even giving this boy an idea as to why he was omitted by this new coach (with many qualifications) is another reason why we will not improve. If high level youth coaches are treating players like this then the lower levels will not be getting anywhere

    Even with the new players that have now started playing with the team this one boy would have easily been a starter. All that I can say is if he was spoken to or sent a message it could have cleared up a lot of this issue. The kid feels like he was tossed to the curb and the adults could not care less.

    As for the new and improved team for next season there is no doubt they will improve in the standings. The problem is the players first impression is not one of trust in the new coach. The boys are still 2 months later talking to each other about this amongst themselves
     
  18. TKBC

    TKBC Established Member

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    Probably talking to the coach and TD is the best way to find a resolution - whatever that resolution may be. As opposed to talking amongst themselves. If it's u16 the players are 15. They are old enough to take some responsibility and voice their opinions.
     

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